Topic closed for now. Anyone wishing to agree or disagree - or anything else - is encouraged to email me if they'd like.

So why don't you quit the victim-mentality, the "sometimes it's hard to be a queer" attitude (is Patsy Cline a gay icon?) and just suck it up like a man (was that un-PC?) because, frankly, gays have got it pretty damn good.

I know as well as the next man how annoying the whiney minority blaming everything on a "ism" is - some people are bad at their jobs and shouldn't blame things on sexism, racism, etc.

But some groups, be it people from the 'wrong' race, or gays do still face discrimination. Most of the time I don't give a second thought to being gay, but when i was beaten up with the guy I was with at the time, I did. (before you ask, it was a homophobic attack, not some random drunken brawl)

It might a "fashionable" to be gay, but in many places outside of the small 'gay villages' or whatever they are called this week in metropolitan areas, being gay is a problem to many people who might try to harm you.

Most people won't, but it's not a good feeling to know that some people want to beat up people just for being gay.

The card is a Tom-ism. It's a bit cheeky abd a bit brash, but that's what he's like at times. If people get offended by that kind of thing, then he's just made a self-selecting decision to reduce the people he might work for. If he can still find a job, why should he care.

People might not like the card, it might cross the line of what you feel is appropriate - these things are relative so I shan't try and decide that - but please don't start acting if everything is rosy for the Gays. It's a lot better than it was, but it's a long way from being a non-issue.

Erik: With regards to the silence = death stuff, I'm afraid I'm with Ralph. Gay people are fucked with every day all over the world - it may not happen in your group of friends, I have no doubt that you're charming to your gay friends, but I'm afraid that I don't subscribe to the view that people keeping quiet about it makes the bad stuff go away. I'm not up to date with the figures but last time I checked gay people still experience job discrimination, most had experience of anti-gay abuse, twice as many gay teenagers as average were attempting suicide and twice as many were succeeding, gay people were over-represented in homelessness statistics and had enormously higher rates of depression and mental illness brought about by stress, discrimination and anxiety. I think that's stuff to fight against, and I do think the best way to do it is to be open and clear about my sexuality. Many other people do too.

On the other hand, I'm completely prepared to stand up and defend the statement that I'm doing this stuff to spare other people as much as to spare myself from the discomfort of weird situations. In one of my first ever jobs I had to deal with a guy who went on and on about the disgusting things gay people did in bed and how repulsed he was by them and how I would feel the same way if 'one of them' had ever come up to me in a bar. I didn't feel I could talk to him about these things, he was clearly an arse, but I got on with my job and kept quiet about it. In a number of occasions in other jobs in various parts of the country I've had people make comments about gay people, and some of them were like the guy in my first job - bloody unpleasant and actually slightly scary. But just as often it's felt like the person concerned is just trying to fit in, doesn't know any gay people whatsoever, has a really weird understanding of gay people or is just a bit clumsy. In one of my jobs - at the BBC actually - a young guy I was working with a bit kept making little references and comments in the office and everyone else knew and I kept trying to drop hints so I wouldn't have to explain to him in public in front of everyone, but he just wouldn't get it. In the end it got really difficult, so I had to write him a note. That way he got to save face and not look like an idiot. And he was a great bloke. Really liked him.

Whole thing would have been made much easier if I'd just gone in and made it clear I was gay straight-off. Might have only taken one offhand remark earlier to avoid the whole situation. I think he'd much preferred to have known earlier, and I'd have much preferred he knew too.

So there you go (1) I'm not going to just go with the conventional wisdom about this stuff I'm afraid, because I'm in a situation where the conventional wisdom isn't terribly good for me or for other gay people. (2) I don't particularly want to be someone who shouts out "I am gay" all over the place, but on the other hand, if people were assuming I was straight then I'd consider it bad - young gay teenagers need to know that there is a future for them if they're gay and that they can get on in the world. (3) The most important thing for me is that I can be as open as everyone else at work (not more open - as open) and to not have to think about whether being gay makes things diferent. The easiest way I have found to do that is to get it out of the way as soon as is humanly possible - so hell yeah - for certain contexts I would like it to be on my business card.

If you don't agree with any of that - sure fine, that's okay too. It's not going to stop me doing it, and I personally think your response to it is based on faulty information. But you're entitled to your views, however wrong they might be. I just don't think you necessarily have the right to be cross or angry or mean about it. If you don't like the card, there's no reason to characterise it as militant queerdom or the actions of an insane flag-waving fanatic. If you think it would genuinely hurt my chances of getting a job, then why not articulate that with concern - "Are you sure people are going to get what you're doing here? Do you not think they might view it as extreme or innappropriate?" Then we could have had a dialogue that wasn't quite so confrontational.

It's now 2004, soon to be 2005. It's almost fucking unfashionable not to be gay now. So why don't you quit the victim-mentality, the "sometimes it's hard to be a queer" attitude (is Patsy Cline a gay icon?) and just suck it up like a man (was that un-PC?) because, frankly, gays have got it pretty damn good.

It TAKES this kind of discussion to illuminate to us gays how much bigotry and lack of empathy still pervades our daily lives.

In my experience, gays/lesbians are the biggest bigots of them all.

I think the reasoning Tom has, in a bright pink nutshell, is that he'd prefer the person to not make the gay joke, because the majority of people who make the gay joke arn't huge jackasses, they just don't have much experience with people who don't happen to be attracted to the other sex (and don't really get why calling something gay when they don't like it, isn't a very good thing to do).

Popping it on his business card seems like a simple way of avoiding problems later on, if he mentions a past boyfriend, he's much less likely to get the "Boyfriend? You're Gay?" moment of uncomfortableness (I'd guess it wasn't great fun for your roomate in College to decide to/tell you he happened to be attracted to guys).

Saying you're gay on your business card is stating a fact to prevent later uncomfortableness. It's not exactly donning leather hot pants and dancing half naked with a rainbow flag and bodypaint during the interview.

Not that there's anything wrong with that:P

You don't think that them not knowing about that might make them feel awkward?

So now you're doing it because you feel bad about making people feel awkward? Cut the crap, Tom. You say later that you're doing it to make things easier for yourself. I'm telling you that, as a straight guy who doesn't tend to make too many assumptions about people, I hope it's the latter, because having "I am gay" put in front of me sure as hell doesn't make things less awkward.

Several other people have pointed out that people make assumptions all the time. That doesn't mean we should all make everyone we meet read a ten-page "about me" so they can be sure to avoid feeling awkward.

There's no straw man here.

Yes, there is. Someone putting "Mrs." on a business card is out of context too. People put "Dr." on a business card, or other titles like "Esquire" or "DMD" or whatever, but those relate to their jobs. Business cards don't have "Mrs." on them, and if they did I'd say it was out of place as well. Job applications don't have a spot for "marital status." Nor do they have a spot for sexual preference.

You've constructed a straw man. A wedding ring on an interview? The context of that wedding ring is her person, her body. Just as any other article of jewelry. If you want to compare a wedding ring to what you've proposed, the woman would have to write "I am married" on her business card. If I saw a card like that, what would my response be? "What the hell does being married have to do with getting a job?"

There's your straw man.

Point is, it only sticks out like a sore thumb to you guys because you think it's a big deal someone saying it.

No. It sticks out because you're saying it on a business card. It's not "grotesque" or "over-the-top" in a lot of situations. On a business card, it is.

I was friends with a guy in college, and we had an apartment our senior years. I'd always thought he was gay, but I didn't really care. He told me he was part-way through that last year. It didn't affect our friendship.

Had he said "Hi, I'm Dave, I'm gay" the first time I met him, I don't know that a friendship would have evolved. It's just not a cool way to go about introducing yourself to people, especially in a business setting.

As I say - it's there more to avoid having to make an issue out of my sexuality than it is to be all melodramatic about it.

Mission not accomplished. Putting it on a business card makes an issue out of it.

These things are not symmetrical.

Yes, they are. Personal information unrelated to contacting someone or their qualifications for a job, their job title, etc. do not belong on a card. Whether it's "I am gay" or "I like Chihuahas". It doesn't belong.

Brian, I realize that health care (etc.) matters to gay people, but again, there are far more tactful ways to inquire as to the health care policy of a company than slapping unrelated information on a business card. Inquire in the interview, on the phone, or with the HR rep prior to accepting the job.

Now we're going around in circles a bit, so if nobody has anything new to say, there's really no need to continue.

Well, here's something that hasn't been brought up at all: I work for a company that doesn't offer insurance to gay partners. My boyfriend attends a law school that doesn't, either (although the ABA in the US does offer alternative insurance for gay law students). Nobody asked either of us whether we were gay during any kind of interview process, because of course it would be an invasion of privacy. And now this company & this school have no idea what sort of climate has been created for gay employees, because they have no idea who their gay employees are.

So there you go. Health insurance and benefits packages are pretty important aspects of accepting a job or doing a job well, in my mind. And they're something straight people take for granted that gay people can't.