FemiNazis
Posted March 31st, 2003 @ 02:11pm by Erik J. Barzeski
Jamie pointed me at this page. I'll let you read it yourself, but the gist is this: a "woman" writes in to criticize feminists for taking things too far, cautioning them that she likes getting flowers, for example. Except the "woman" is a guy, as the real women discover.
I was taught to open doors for women, not because I think they're incapable, inferior, or in any other way in need of my assistance to open a door, but because it's respectful and courteous.
I learned that women like flowers, and that I like to give them, not because I like to demonstrate that I'm in control or because they're a sexual symbol (flowers are a plant's reproductive organs, after all), but because women think they smell nice and look pretty, and receiving them brightens their mood, and because I like to brighten the mood of women about which I care.
I discovered that women often have a different perspective and that society expects different things from women, but that the difference is something that can result in great things, and the expectations are things to be overcome, not things to continue to enforce.
I like to carry things for women people, regardless of their gender, not because it demonstrates how weak the person relieved of the carrying may be, but because it demonstrates my willingness to assist and my eagerness to make someone else's day a little easier.
Thing is, I could replace the word "women" with "other people" and most of the above would still be true. I open doors (not car doors) for my male friends, I offer to help them when I can (by carrying things, helping them move, etc.), and I like to give gifts (not necessarily flowers) to make their day a little nicer.
I'm a traditional guy in a lot of ways. While I make no judgments of how others choose to live their lives, I certainly know how I want to live mine.
- I want to be able to provide for my family, by myself, should my wife want to stay at home with the kids. However, I'd also support my wife if she wanted to work, and wouldn't care at all if she made more than me. I think I'd be a great work-from-home dad (all these years of practice might pay off).
- I would like to live in a house with my wife, have a lawn and perhaps a little picket fence, and play catch with my son in our yard, but I wouldn't care if the mailbox said "The Barzeskis" because my wife wanted to keep her own last name.
- I want to sleep with my wife, and I don't want to sleep with someone else, nor do I want her to sleep with anyone else. Don't think I'll bend on that one.
- I like to drive, and while I may joke with Jamie about it, I let her drive whenever she wants to.
- I believe paying for a date is the responsibility of the guy, and again a show of politeness, and will do so unless the woman suggest she pay for half. I'm fine with that.
Feminism has gotten a bad name, Jamie's taught me. Like any group, it takes only a few bad seeds to spoil the perception of the rest of the crop. FemiNazis are the ones that despise men - all men - matter of factly. I'd suggest that they have their own issues, but Jamie's shown me that these women aren't really feminists at all. Feminism is a movement (I hate calling it that) to eliminate sexism. To provide an equal ground for men and women in the workplace (how many female engineers do you know?), in relationships (the woman has an equal say in decisions), and in life (women are not assumed to be weaker or incapable of things).
I've had strong women in my life. As a kid I knew I could get a rise out of my mom by joking about "shouldn't you be in the kitchen or something?" My grandma left my grandpa when he hit her. My sister has grown into a strong woman. My female friends have always been strong women who typically don't like "girls." Many of my female friends have enjoyed sex, long thought to be something that only a man should do. My female friends wear less makeup than most women. My female friends wear jeans more often than most women and are more athletic than most women. In short, they're not afraid to be themselves, bucking this whole "what a woman should be" thing that society dumps onto them.
Of course, feminism is not all about flowers and door-opening. It involves wages. The perception that women are somehow better suited, genetically or socially, to be secretaries than CEOs. It's got to do with the deep-seated "grab her by the hair and drag her back to your abode" caveman mentality that still shows itself in every corner of this country.
Until the feminist movement agrees that women should be available as men are to be drafted, as I wrote about previously, they've fallen short of their goals. With equal privileges come equal responsibilities. You can't go from telling me that women are equally as fit to serve their country by being engineers or scientists or career women and then back up and tell me that they should not be responsible for protecting those rights in the same capacities as men. After all, our current war machine uses plenty of engineers, scientists, and smart people - why exclude women? All other things being equal, the team using only 50% of its available assets will lose to the team using 100%.
Will we ever have gender equality? In my lifetime? I don't know. We'll see. I think we have a ways to go. Until then, don't get on my case for opening a door. For s flowers. For offering to drive or to pay. For hoping that I can make enough money to provide for my wife. It's just a sign of respect, and a desire to make your life happier, because in the end, I'll be the one cuddled up on the couch watching Serendipity with you.
Donate Life
Posted 31 Mar 2003 at 3:54pm #
"I like to carry things for women, regardless of their gender"
hehe. Sometimes it's tough to tell gender 🙂
Posted 31 Mar 2003 at 4:18pm #
What are feminist organizations views about the draft as it applies towards men?
If they find that the draft is not "just" in that case it's not just for all.
Posted 31 Mar 2003 at 5:47pm #
On Courtesy
NSLog(); - FemiNazis I was taught to open doors for women, not because I think they're incapable, inferior, or in any other way in need of my assistance to open a door, but because it's respectful and courteous....
Posted 31 Mar 2003 at 11:18pm #
Socialization
Erik Barzeski defends practices that he believes in against the claim of gender inequity: I believe paying for a date is the responsibility of the guy, and again a show of politeness, and will do so unless the woman suggest...
Posted 01 Apr 2003 at 12:00am #
I think it's interesting that while feminists don't typically argue for conscription of women (and many, like Emma Goldman, have opposed the entire process), the anti-feminist movement used the idea of female conscription as a wedge against the ERA. Look at Phyllis Schlafly's work for examples.
Additionally, various feminists have argued that the Constitution requires women to be drafted, and many supported those arguments in Rostker vs. Goldberg. The liberal hotbed known as the Rehnquist Supreme Court decided that all-male conscription was Constitutional, and while many feminist scholars oppose that decision, it's not exactly first on their list of priorities.
Posted 01 Apr 2003 at 1:17pm #
I was taught to open doors for women, not because I think they're incapable, inferior, or in any other way in need of my assistance to open a door, but because it's respectful and courteous.
I open doors for everyone. If I get there first, I open the door. I don't understand the need to worry about the gender of the person I'm opening the door for, although I will explain, if women assume that I'm being "chivalrous," that I'm just being polite.
I learned that women like flowers, and that I like to give them, not because I like to demonstrate that I'm in control or because they're a sexual symbol (flowers are a plant's reproductive organs, after all), but because women think they smell nice and look pretty, and receiving them brightens their mood, and because I like to brighten the mood of women about which I care.
Shouldn't you say that you learned that some women like flowers? Surely not all of them do.
Also, many men will think flowers smell nice (they do!) and look pretty (they do!) -- why aren't you giving flowers to men?
Like any group, it takes only a few bad seeds to spoil the perception of the rest of the crop. FemiNazis are the ones that despise men - all men - matter of factly. I'd suggest that they have their own issues, but Jamie's shown me that these women aren't really feminists at all.
Nor do they really even exist, outside of stereotypes pushed by Rush Limbaugh and his ilk. "FemiNazi" and "hatred of all men" are false images pushed forward to discredit feminism, and aren't even a case of a few bad seeds. They're the case of a deliberate attempt by anti-feminists to smear the anti-sexism movement.
Until the feminist movement agrees that women should be available as men are to be drafted, as I wrote about previously, they've fallen short of their goals. With equal privileges come equal responsibilities. You can't go from telling me that women are equally as fit to serve their country by being engineers or scientists or career women and then back up and tell me that they should not be responsible for protecting those rights in the same capacities as men.
Which parts of "the feminist movement" have ever claimed this? Again, you are presenting the anti-feminist stereotype of feminism and expecting feminists to defend it.
It's a somewhat effective ruse on those who aren't paying attention, because you can ask, "Well, when have you ever heard a feminist saying they're for women being drafted?" But that's deceptive for two reasons.
First is that by and large, the feminists don't control the means of conveying information in our society. Feminist voices (and other minority voices) are only allowed to speak in limited quantities, while the majority population can shape public opinion to their heart's content. More people hear, on a daily basis, Rush Limbaugh's version of what he claims feminists believe than hear actual feminists presenting their viewpoints.
Secondly, feminists are associated with liberals, progressives, and other left-of-center types. This is no accident -- clinging to the vestiges of white hetero male power in the U.S. is a conservative value, and there's little place for honest feminism on the right.
With that liberal bent comes a typical opposition to the military and thus opposition to the draft for anyone. Do feminists clamor for the draft to be instated for women? No -- because by and large, those who are feminists are also those who clamor for the draft to be abolished entirely. There are very few pro-draft feminists -- but I am fairly certain that among those pro-draft feminists, they all support the notion of a gender-neutral draft.
It's just a sign of respect, and a desire to make your life happier, because in the end, I'll be the one cuddled up on the couch watching Serendipity with you.
Do you respect me? (I'm a guy, by the way.) If so, why don't you want to make my life happier by opening doors for me, sending me pretty things that smell nice to brighten my day, and cuddle up on the couch next to me to watch movies?
--Kynn
Posted 01 Apr 2003 at 3:22pm #
When I said I open doors, I meant car doors.Yes, fine, "some" women like flowers. I've never met one that doesn't. Why are you nit-picking so much?I don't give flowers to men because they like other things more. The ones I know, anyway.FemiNazis exist - I've met a few. Who cares what Rush Limbaugh says?Again, who cares what Rush says? Several feminists I know voice opinions on "women in the draft." You need only look online for feminist stances on this topic. They clamor for the draft to be eliminated altogether? You need to do some research. You're doing far too much stereotyping of your own. It's very easy to disprove an "all" so watch what you say. I know for a fact you're wrong.I will open doors for you, if you were a friend and you liked pretty things I'd give them to you, and there's no way in hell I'm going to cuddle with you, no. Your point? Did you miss the whole part about replacing "women" above with "other people"? I do those things regardless of gender. Except the cuddling, of course. Does that make me homophobic now? No.
Posted 01 Apr 2003 at 3:52pm #
Okay, prove me wrong. Where are the feminists who are for the draft and favor it being men-only? I took a quick look at Google (feminist women in the draft) and haven't come across a whole lot of these views. Maybe I'm not searching the right place, can you help?
You're not going to cuddle with any women besides your wife, so why do you end your argument about the treatment of women with something about women as cuddle-partners?
I didn't call you homophobic, so let's not even start going there. I do, however, question your assumptions about women -- and men -- which seem designed to see them as a specific category of person ("women like flowers") instead of as individuals ("Chris likes flowers").
--Kynn
Posted 01 Apr 2003 at 4:50pm #
Prove you wrong: fine. My friend Crystal disagrees with you, thus proving you wrong. Don't say "all." You can no longer be "fairly certain." Feel free to be "wrong" though. You want to criticize my language (i.e. "some" women), then you're not above the same criticism.
Cuddling != Sex. Duh. I might cuddle with my daughter, and come to think of it, my son too. Or my dog. Or friends. Cuddling is not cheating.
If you want to question my assumptions, go ahead. But you're once again stepping into "wrong" territory: I don't "assume" things about women, and I'm very much in favor of individuals.
Don't post more comments on this.You've succeeded in dragging what I'd hoped might be a real conversation into the pits of semantics and assumptions. In the end, after all, you know nothing about me, and I don't care what you do think you know.
P.S. Your Google search is pretty lame. "in the" are common words, as is "draft" (draft of this paper, of that proposal, etc.). You want better results (for yourself)? Use a better search.
Posted 15 Apr 2003 at 8:10pm #
http://www.google.com/search?q=feminist+draft+women+army
That wasn't too hard.
Posted 15 Apr 2003 at 8:25pm #
But I suppose using HTML to make that a link was? 😛
Posted 19 Jun 2003 at 6:10pm #
Just two comments on this whole issue, coming from an average white guy from Indiana who fosters no sense of bigotry in any direction....
First, the concept of women in the military. Hell of a great idea in almost every aspect, but not all. There is one arena where, I am speaking scientifically, women should not be involved. That arena is combat arms. Anyone can be smart and disciplined. Women are suited to military life just as well as men in that case. In direct combat, however, women truly are not equal to men. I'm not saying that as a pro-male thing, so don't start flaming me, but give it some serious thought. Especially in infantry, where you may have to engage in hand-to-hand conflict. Testosterone fuels the body in that sort of setting, like it did when men and women really did have different roles back in our caveman days. Our biology and culture do not evolve at the same pace, and we're still biologically inclined in more or less the same direction as we were in caveman times. If you have to beat something to death before it beats you, males are genetically programmed to do that sort of thing--it's how we got a good portion of our food as a species. Then, there is hygiene. Sometimes, you are in the field for weeks on end, with no plumbing. I know because I've seen it. Every 28 days or so, a woman menstruates. That's hygiene hell if you'e stuck somewhere totally inhospitable. If you have to run through the sand for six weeks and you're running at reduced effectiveness for one of those weeks, do the math. Women in prolonged direct combat in hostile environments is a bad idea. Outside of that, though, women can handle the military as well as men can, and anyone who thinks otherwise is thinking with an outdated value system.
Second, on whether or not Feminazis exist (replying to Kynn's comment.) They most certainly do, they've tried to hang their shit on me before. That's all I have to say.
Posted 20 Jun 2003 at 9:47pm #
Ah, Pat, what you don't know about menstruation… Ignorance is bliss, isn't it? The basis of your very argument (that women menstruate, which essentially cripples them for a week - to the point where their running-through-the-sand abilities are diminished - and should therefore not be allowed to fight in combat arms/hand-to-hand or, commonly, "man-to-man" combat) is very, very sad. I've heard the "women are too emotional" and "women are too fearful" and "women aren't strong enough" argument a hundred times. I've found very little validity in those washed-out generalizations, as it seems you have. But menstruation? Hrmph…
Okay, okay, I've heard my brother say, "anyone who bleeds for seven days and doesn't die is just not human." But our bleeding isn't caused by some injury to our bodies; we aren't crippled. Women run, ski, do gymnastics, and (speaking from experience) dance competitively on their period… Generally speaking (since we all know that all women are not equally able to handle all situations) we don't schedule physically tasking activities around that time of the month… Rain or shine, menstruation or not, we do it. Personally, it never prevented me from doing any physical activity — and it wasn't stamped across my forehead, either (meaning that it didn't decrease my performance). To be honest, the only time it affects me (and many women) is during the first hour… certainly not such an unreasonable time as to keep a woman out of combat.
So, Pat, until you pull a tampon out of your /* Insert 4-5 letter word here */ don't base an argument on menstruation. And if you ever do, that's just gross… I don't think anyone would want to hear about it anyway. 😛
Posted 20 Jun 2003 at 10:05pm #
Okay, just to clarify in advance, the phrase "we do it" was not to imply any particular … ahem … "physical activity." 😀
Posted 09 Jul 2003 at 11:25pm #
i think that ur all nit piking 2 much, this guy has some really good points, just accept them and dont make dumb pointless comments like some women or my friend crystal thinks....like really!!!
Posted 23 Aug 2003 at 1:03am #
uh, jamie, about the anything that bleeds for six days and doesn't die just isn't human thing, it's just a joke, it's not really something that mystifies guys minds and has us scratching our heads like "I don't get it, they've been bleedin for days and aren't dead yet" you may have already known that, but the way you went into explaining how it's not an injury it's just some yadda yadda yadda that made me think that you honestly thought we were perplexed about the bleeding thing, just wanted to clear that up.
Posted 31 Aug 2003 at 8:32pm #
I am 16 years old and a feminist to the core. I personally think that the draft itself is unjust, but that if men have to suffer for it, then so should women. I have no desire to ever join the military or take up arms for any reason, but I plan to register for the draft when I turn 18 because I believe in equal rights and equal responsibility. That is not to say that I would not defend my country, only that the life of a soldier is not at all the kind of life I want. If I'm needed, I'm ready. If I ever am drafted, I hope it will be for a just war. I support the troops but disagree with Gulf War II.
Posted 13 Sep 2003 at 11:19pm #
EVERY MAN AND WOMAN FOR THEMSELVES. NO MORE SEX = NO MORE PROBLEMS.