Subscribe to
NSLog(); Header Image

Ammunition Comparison

Here is a picture that may shock you (and not because of the glass of straight up amaretto in the background):


What you see here are three bullets (and their casings). From the right, we have a CCI .22 LR Mini-Mag, used in my Ruger Mark II semiautomatic handgun with an UltraDot red dot scope. Next to it we find the standard 9mm Luger. Finally, far to the left, we see a .50 caliber round (yes, it's live) for use from a machine gun, primarily those mounted to helicopters and used in Vietnam or on today's Blackhawks. Lately, such bullets have been used for shooting competitions at 1,000 yards with 30 lb. rifles costing well over $2500.

The .22 means ".22 inches" and the bullet is a .22 caliber "long rifle" bullet. The description is as much marketing ("long rifle") as it is accurate (.22 caliber == .22 inches in this case). The 9mm Luger denotes both the size (9 mm = .354 in =~ .35 caliber) and the inventor (Luger), and most of my 9mm are 115 grain bullets (with smokeless powder). I shoot only FMJ (full-metal jacket) bullets, because I shoot indoors. Vaporized lead isn't the best thing to breathe in, I'm told. 🙂 The .50 caliber bullet is just that: .5 inches in diameter. It has a few more grains of powder and, well, it'll put a hole in someone as easily as it'll simply tear their arm off.

Contrary to what you may think after having watched The Jackal, the rather weak .22 is the preferred ammunition for actual hitmen. The little stingers are rather quiet, and they usually lack the power to penetrate more than one bone. This simply means that after breaking through one side of the skull, the bullets will ricochet around inside of the skull, making mincemeat of the grey matter inside.

139 Responses to "Ammunition Comparison"

  1. Who the hell has watched The Jackal?

  2. The Mossad prefer small-calibre for hits; 6-8 men surround the target and shoot, then they all scatter. A dozen .22 hollowpoints will cause serious damage!

  3. That's a big ass bullet!

    1. Surely you jest!

  4. i, for one, have watched the jackal. : )

    and although the .22 is definitely a popular round amongst assasins, another equally qualified candidate for the job is its slightly bigger brother, the .270. i happen to own such a rifle, and can attest to its incredible accuracy. the round, much like the .22, has a very flat trajectory, and doesnt drop noticeably even at distances of 400 yards.

    eric, if you ever find the urge to purchase something with a little more punch, you should look at the S&W .50 cal magnum. now that's a hand cannon. kim du toit actually mentioned it some time last february:

  5. forget the bullets - I want that mug!!

    I keed I keeeed…

    Coming from someone who hasn't shot very much, .22's are nice to shoot because of the basically non existant recoil - it's like shooting a pellet gun basically. Where as my Dad's Ingram Mac-10 kicks like a donkey. Fun times 🙂

  6. Quibbles.... Most Helo mounted machine guns in 'nam were M-60's in 7.62mm, not .50. Today's Army also mounts .50's on Humvees, and they aren't technically cleared for anti-personal duties.

    Also not only are .22 cartridges quieter, but the bullets are also easier to slow to sub-sonic speeds, thus making them even quieter, if hampering their range.

    I don't recall the details, but I've heard bad things about .50 S&W. I want to say that they slowed the bullet down too much, but I'm sketchy on that.

    There's a definite sweet spot as far as bullet-size to charge size goes for the bullet power to Ease of shooting ratio. It's that ratio that prompted people in USPSA and other competitive tactical shooting realms to adopt the .38 Super. Personally I don't like the round, I don't like over charging things and I certainly don't like the 9mm bullet that it's derived from.

    One last thing about FMJ and indoor ranges. It's not just about vaporized lead. Since indoor ranges have to have some kind of bullet trap. The ones I've seen have been rubbery, with a bucket-type thing underneath. The problem is when you shoot unjacketed ammo into the rubber-ish material it can 'blossom' and get caught, plus all that lead dust in the bucket underneath ain't the best thing for the people have to empty it either. Outdoor ranges you're leaving the lead in the ground, which probably isn't good either, but there seem to be fewer laws about that.

  7. The myth about .50 cal ammunition being against the Geneva convention and only used to target vehicles or "equipment" ("I swear I was shooting at his belt!") is just that. A myth.

  8. I would like to know the difference between .38, 380, and 9MM cartriges. Tks.

  9. Dominican Republic in 65. Took a Lt's head (top half) and his helmet completly off. The helmet landed in the street fifty feet from myself and a couple others. 7 dead. shells broke cement blocks in half with enough punch to kill people behind them. Copter took out gun two minutes later. Tough! Just the regular dumb shit!

  10. Are there different sizes in .22 cal. bullets??? We have a 22 and it keeps jamming someone told us it the length??? Just curios so if anyone know could you let us know. Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    1. It depends on the weapon you are using. The 22 hollow points are known for their jamming in an automatic feed weapon. Then again, the jamming may be due, that you are attempting to chamber the wrong 22 ammunition. There are, the last time researched 22 ammunition a Short,(S), Long,(L), and Long Rifle, (LR), lengths. The LR., is the only one, I think that can be purchased in a hollow point. Your weapon will have the correct ammunition to be used in it stamped on the barrel or magazine housing.I do not think, that there is a 22 rifle on the market today, that will permit the use of all three of the said lengths.

      It is best for you to discuss your problem with an knowledgable individual at a sportsmans center or call the manufacture of the weapon and/or ammunition to determine the cause of your experiencing problem.

      If you wish to follow-up on your experiencing probelm with me. You just reply to this reply comment and I will do my best to get back to you.

      Gray Ryder

  11. 1. To answer the .38 question, they are all the same bullet but have diffrent cases. a .38 is basically a .357 magnum without the powerful kick. .357 has much more powder behind it. People who have .357's often target shoot with .38 special cartridges. A .380 is a 9mm case that has been "necked down" or had it's case shortened to make it a .380. They are the same size essentially but the shape of each bullet varies by caliber designation.

    2. There are differences between .22 bullets as well.
    Look on the gun itself. .22LR is Long Rifle, .22S is Short, .22L is Long. There is also 22-250 which is a rifle case with a .22 bullet. Try diffrent ammo I use .22LR Reminton Golden bullets. High power less likelihood of a malfunction. Most likely you have a LR and are using underpowered ammo in your automatic.

  12. Can i use 9mm bullets in my .380 pistol?

  13. Chad, why they let you purchase a gun is beyond me. So, did you guys know that "rim-fire" came before "center-fire"? Also, that little .22lr that spits a 40 gr. bullet at around 1200 fps used to be considered a relatively "powerful" round? There were other "rim-fire" cartridges developed long before the .22lr.

  14. Hmm. Well some are close. That is a Ma Duece round. It is for anything with metal bolted to it. It is against the Geneva Convention to be fired at personnel directly. A person investigated for the use of this weapon against a human stands to be persecuted under the Geneva Convention as a PIFWC (pif-wick) Person Indeited For War Crimes and CAN WIN AN ALL EXPENSE PAID VACATION TO THE HAGUE AND POSSIBLY COOBA. If you attempted to fire it with a hand gun you would snap your arms off at the shoulders. I Absolutely love those things as an ex Tanker. I was a gunner on M60A3's, M1Abrams, and M1A2's. Many a times at our tank tables we would shoot boars and deer with as many of those as we could. One of them will split a 12 point buck in half. I'm not exaggerating. Shoot a man 5 times with a 22 and he will be hurting. Shoot him with a .50 and part of him will be beside himself. .45's all the way!

  15. I am trying to figure out if they make a full metal jacket .22-250 that sales retail. And if they do where could I find it?

  16. accually, its not a violation of any kind of rule to shoot anyone with a .50 cal round. think about it, if it was then why would there be a .50 cal sniper rifle?

  17. wtf ...i must say that most of the post i read from this page may have been written by monkeys (with few ecceptions)...first and formost..a 380 and a 9 mm are not even realated except being a pistol bullet..NO NOT TRY TO SWAP AMMO IN THOSE GUNS...second as a marine sniper with 2/6 STA it is a bad thing to shoot someone with a 50 cal.and you can be punished as a war criminal....and as to the post ..accually, its not a violation of any kind of rule to shoot anyone with a .50 cal round. think about it, if it was then why would there be a .50 cal sniper rifle? the m82-a1 is not a SNIPER RIFLE the sasser as it is called with shooters is a precision rifle not a sniper is intended to disable vehicles and even comm to towers generatoes etc. not people..but if there is no other way to protect a soldger other than a caliber .50 then the soldger can engage troops directly with the 50 cal.

  18. You can't even spell "soldier"?! Is that the caliber of marine recruits these days?

    1. Hey Boot,
      Back off of j8541. He is halfway correct. The last time I attended a NRA Range Shoot. The 380 was classed with the 9mm, 38 line. The 380 is also known as a 9mm short. He, j8541, told you straight. The ammunition is not inter-changeable.The balls are diametically the same. However, the knock down power between the three is some what is to be considered.

      The most important consideration in the use of the said three is to use the ammunition needed for the purpose intended. Federal Hydro-Shok, (now, now Boot don't get you panties in a wad, that is the way Federal spells Shok), and/or Normady Critical Defense on a double tap mass placement will stop any aggressor.

      I do not have the least idea as to the weapon, that was used by the snake eaters in Nam. However, I do know that the bolt action 06 was used in WWII and Korea. Now, as to the 50 Cal., being used at this point in time on the rag heads and camel traders. I viewed a special, on the Military Channel, whereas, the 50 sniper design, by some special name, was being tested for future sniper action use and it had be placed in action on a test basis in Afgan. As for the ammunition, Geneva Conventions, has provisions as to the use of only FMJ ammunition. However, a target is a target and when your job is to take out the target, who is going to check the spent round to determined if is within the GC provisions.

      A very special thanks to all you that served and are currently in the service to our nation.

      Gray Ryder.

  19. duh, stupid, you are comparing the biggest rifle possible and the smallest rifle, a .50 cal and .22 cal, plus you got a .40 cal handgun bullet, dug there is going to be sort of a size difference 💡

    1. Actually the biggest sniper rifle is the Vince Lewis South African produced 20mm. See it at:

  20. Since when is it against anything to shoot an ememy with a .50 cal?? .50 cal sniper rifles are in use today....quite legally.

    1. Sure - 50 cal is a great sniper rifle. The powder behind the slug is enough to shoot it almost three miles accurately and the slug (as recently passed around the internet in e-mail) can make a man's head look like a muskmelon recently sledge hammered.

      Now about the Helos in Nam. I saw many different guns mounted on those versatile outside turrets being fired by the incredibly brave men that hung outside supported by a sling. The most common I saw was 50 cal. but I saw 60 cal as well. As a matter of fact, some men pulled duty hefting around a 60 cal out in the jungle. Because of it's size, it was called the "pig." Incredibly accurate and incredibly destructive, I don't believe anyone lived who was struck with one of those rounds. The force and velocity was enough to literally suck the blood and organs out of any opening made by it. I want the "pig" on my side, man.

  21. hey mat...where do i is a small and wasted mind that can only think of one way to spell a word....but never the less thank you for pointing out a simple spelling error.But unless you have anything helpful or smart or even reasonable funny it is better to have me assume you are a retard then to post a retarded comment such as the above and remove any doubt from my mind that you are a about the caliber of marines they produce these a leader of men who put their life in the line everyday to give retards like you (mat)the freedom to be retarded and make dumb ass post like the above one...on numerious missions all of my marines came home including myself.some injuries some serious but we all came home and the bad guys died and the mission was completed. So i beg you to go talk to your local marine recruiter and sign up.and just see if you have what it takes to be one of the few and the proud and put your very life on the line and come home to have a punk ass correct you on a spelling error and judge the kind of person you are on that ...........simper fi

    1. Having been a Marine (1966 to 1972) i served two tours in Nam. 1st tour (67 to 68) was with L Co. 3/26 and i served as a grunt machine gunner (M-60) and occasionally a truck or ground mounted .50 cal. My second Nam tour was as a door-gunner/crew chief on a CH-53D helo. We had door mounted .50 cals. on both sides of bird. Never heard any objections or rules concerning shooting ground troops with a .50 cal. The M-60 was a heavy mother to hump in the bush but nothing got the adrenalin flowing like the yell " GUNS UP ". had to have been there to appreciate it. never heard a 60 refered to as the "pig". Must be an Army term.

    2. Semper, perhaps...


      Ever heard of commas, spaces, capital letters etc...

      But you're probably good at shooting people when your government asks you yo...

  22. oh yea by the way..the barret is not considdered a sniper is called the sasser and is a precision rifle because it does not shoot MOA. For a rifle to be a sniper rifle as marine standards it has to shoot MOA..if you dont know what that means you have no right to argue with me...good day to you all

  23. I sometimes check on this page to see what the latest monkey has said about my last post and sometimes forget to read all of the ones befor it.but this time i read all of i really think some of you are retards who have been taught to type in your special ed classes. for example...this dumb ass trying to compare a 22lr and it big brother the wtf the only thing they have in common is the 2...not even close balisticly .....and to the dude who tries to say how the mossad works 6-8 people surrounding someone and then run away is have read to many 007 books and saw movies....really people spewing bullshit from your little cum dumpsters are going to get someone hurt or killed....and for those who have actual questions...ask a local gunsmith or someone at your local gunstore..try to avoid getting information that may change your life from internet rant pages..guns and bullets are for one thing ..putting holes in things they dont know you dont know how or why they work they dont have any feelings they dont know you are ignorant about them and they will kill you

  24. j8541, You have some good points, yet you lack the ability to properly deliver them.

    wtf i really think some of you are retards who have been taught to type in your special ed classes.

    If they all learned to type in their special ed classes, you need to sign up for one because they are all typing better than you.

    you are on that ...........simper fi

    Try Semper Fi dumas.

  25. last i checked was not a typing 101 class...and i am glad that it realy doesnt matter how it is spelled as long as you get the my question to you sir is did you get the point? and with out doing a google search on the word semper fidelis i doubt you know what it there for you have no righ nor place to correct me in its spelling
    but i am glad that noone has the ability to correct me on ANYTHING but my spelling so to that sir i say......i have 99 problems and and a bitch aint one...aka you

  26. j8541 you are nothing but a head strong gun slinging yank who has not the time of day to educate others in the matter of fire arms. If you loose yourself control so quickly and shout the odds to people who are trying to clear up matters of which they are unsure about, shows how much an immature testosterone jumped up little shit you must be, correct them by all means but try not to shout the odds against them. Yes the world is full of retards and most of them say stupid tings as seen in this page but you should set an example and not lower yourself as you have done or is that the “marine way”

  27. well my dear bring up an interesting point.....well to me anyway....the fact that i have to lower myself no matter how much to even reply to comments made by most of the people who post on this forum....including but not limited to youself...And for the record the marine way is to locate...close with...and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver or to repell the enemys assault by fire and close combat.
    in the world we live in and the laws that govern the great united states i live in i am unable to do so with the enemy being would make a lot of people angry if stupidity was punishable by death for the population of the world would be greatly i battle the enemy with what ever means necessary...if it seems harsh to you and you get you feelings hurt over my comments...dont read tactics and methods work.marines have come home to mommy or suzy because of them.and remember that i did not get paid for my methods i was paid for my results.
    good day to you sir.

  28. j8541, I Have a question on what to use in my .223 rifle for shooting racoons and other small game. So far i have a couple ideas. 50-Grain Silvertip Ballistic Tip, 55-Grain Nosler Ballistic Tip and 55-Grain Speer TNT. What do you think would work better?

  29. zach....
    To answer your question i have to know if you plan to eat the game or just doing pest extermination .And befor you ask yes you can eat racoon and yes i have eaten it. So to address the question if you plan to just kill the little boogers. A .223 (5.56mm) is an extremly potent bullet for small to even fairly large game,not like bears or elephants and such but i have put plenty of dear in the freezer with a .223 and lets not forget that there are people getting shot and killed in iraq everyday with the little i have to say that there is no bad choice for the pest problem. I do advise that you take your rifle to the range and get a good solid zero and then test fire a few different types of ammo in your rifle to see what she likes. Every gun is different even two identical rifles may like different ammo. Take the one with the smallest group and use it. I really doubt you have to worry about getting a good kill on such game as coons and the like with a .223 if you are shooting at under 100 yards. And i cant forsee a coon being shot even that far away, but it would kill it past 100 yards mind you. But to use a 223 on game the size of coons and smaller if you plan to eat them is a little excessive.I would use a .22 or that bad ass .17 mk II or HMR or even a .22 mag

  30. Thanks

  31. Sirs,
    I should not take the time to insert myself into this but I am afraid that I will in any case. First, to J8541:

    Marine, many of your points are valid, and I cannot help but agree with your assessment of Stupidity as the enemy. However, your unfortunately poor grammatical and typographical skills--in addition to your firebrand temper--are giving your opponents opportunity to mock not only you but also the Corps. However, I thank you for your service to our Country and the protection of our freedom. And speaking not as a Marine but as a close friend of a Marine (whose commissioning I had the honor of observing this past May) I say: Semper Fi! (Always Faithful)

    Next, I must turn my attention to Viking. Sir, you attempt to wax eloquent, but your grammar is atrocious and you are redundant. You give vikings a bad name, and as an American of Norwegian descent, I must dissent! (Bad pun, I know) Additionally, while correcting a Marine is no problem (and the Marine should have the good grace to accept correction, even if unwarranted), to insult a Marine is dangerous, for you insult also his Corps and those of us who support it. Personally, I am most grateful for those "headstrong, gun-slinging yanks" who, often by sheer force of will, have kept this country free.

    These things being said, you shall hear from me no more, unless it be on the topic around which this forum ought to center, that being ammunition.


  32. Hello again Gentlemen,

    I do have a tendency to dangle a participle or two. I also have a tendency to use incomplete sentences to express a complete thought. Neither of these things, which have been so eloquently expressed by JV, deviates from one vital fact: I am still correct.

    However, at this point I have a question on the topic of ammunition. I am in the market to acquire another pistol. I am getting a Glock, but I am torn between the Glock 21 .45 ACP or the new Glock 37 .45 GAP. I've owned a 21, and loved it but the back strap was a little big for me. It shot well and I shot well with it but I've heard some pretty impressive things about the GAP. I do believe, though, that it will be difficult for me to stray away from the ACP.

    If anyone has one of each I would love to get your feedback.

    I am looking at the 21 SF too. Maybe I'll just get that one.

    Oooh Rahh.

  33. j8541,
    While the Marine Corps may have prohibited you from engaging enemy personnel with a .50 cal rifle, the fact is that there is not one line in the laws of land warfare that pertains to what calibers you are not allowed to use. You should read it before you quote it.
    Secondly, you immediately began lashing out at everyone with your bad grammar and atrocious spelling. Literate people tend to make a far more compelling argument when the argument is written.
    Lastly, being a marine alone does not make you right. I'm a soldier who has done 2 tours in Iraq and I can attest to the marine mentality. We learned about that one night in Mosul when a group of marines shot the hell out of one of OUR convoys. Their logic seemed to be "What's that? I don't know, but it's moving so let's kill it"
    I'm not impressed.

  34. its true my brother was shot twice in the left arm during that "firefight". i thank you for the advice and i have chosen the the nosler ballistic silvertip rounds but know this: I never understood Marines they think that because they are better trained they are better than the other armed forces but they are inferior to the others in skill and firepower. do not take this personally it directed at those who think this.

  35. and i own a glock 37 and suggest the use of this for all around shooting

  36. joe really i amuse me boy.You are right though being a marine alone does not make me right...being right makes me right....GOD HAS A HARD ON FOR MARINES...BECAUSE WE KILL EVERYTHING WE SEE.AND WE KEEP HEAVEN PACKED FULL OF FRESH SOULS.

    now as to your convoy....shit happens.when a man goes to combat his brain turns to water and runs out his ears...not funny but it happens.there is several factors that goes along with things like marines and other ground troops not having the same com freqs and therefor not being able to talk to one another.people getting lost in a place where everything looks the same.bad things happen to good people.and when you put guns in the hands of kids who joined the military for school money things get fucked up fast

    now if you have anything to say other than i miss spell sometimes in haste to get a point across do so but other than that..go file some papers or count something on your next drill meeting.

  37. and zach

    have fun at the range and answer me one can someone as a group be better trained and not be better than one who is not trained as well. Do me a favor and look up how many times the other branches are called upon to recover a downed pilot. or do an amphibious assault on a beach head. How many famous army snipers have books written about them. And look up how many times in history the marines have bailed the army out or a fire fight. Find out why the marines are called AMERICAS 911. Why marines are always the first ones to answer the call to arms. Why you are in the army in the airforce in the navy but you ARE a marine.why when people wash out or marine boot camp..the go to the army and do go do your home work and then post something.shoot well and good luck.

  38. j8541 I was in 3/6 w co right next door. Don't waste your breath trying to explain what its like being in the corps. They just won't understand. I never heard about the convoy that Marines shot up, but there is a good chance they were doing something to make themselves look different or not quite right. Also its possible they were reservists and not as well trained. Marines own Anbar, the most bad guys = the most capable branch. Btw when the army sent out their high speed units we were tasked as their cavalry. Not the army but the Marines. Regarding the glock, I love the 17 but in higher loads I'm not a fan. You should take a look at Steyr, they don't have it in .45 but the 357 sig is an ass kicker and it costs about a $100 less. Awesome sights and ergonomics and it was designed by an engineer who left glock. Also their service department was thorough and prompt in installing an 8 lb trigger.

  39. j8541,
    Bravo on your ability to quote a movie that millions have seen. Very original. The fact that you quoted that line of it shows an utter lack of discipline that is apparently inherit to the Corps, if your comment is any indication. Sorry, still not impressed. As for my convoy, nobody was lost and our vehicles bore very little resemblence to Iraqi vehicles. Your remark about putting guns in the hands of kids who joined the military for school money tells me that even the big, bad Marines are not immune to problems that plague the Army. Also, I am active Army and Infantry. Not some clerk or National Guard so once again, you have stuck your foot in your mouth.
    P.S. It's misspell, not "miss spell". Therefore, not "Therefor". You put two (2) spaces after a period. You also capitalize the first letter of a sentence. Try using proper grammar, spelling, and punctuation. That in conjunction with knowing what you're talking about will help you make a more compelling argument.

  40. stfu joe, and J8, i have found that u r right and i overreacted a little bit and yes it is true that 37 marine snipers are in books and only 4 army snipers have that honor.


  41. the only time army or navy pilots ever recovered their own downed pilots was in WWII in the european theater. they had no choice because marines were trapped under enemy fire in Bordeux.


  42. Why should I stfu, Zach? I was only offering a little constructive criticism, not trying to start an interservice pissing contest.

  43. Gentlemen:

    As one who stopped at this site see what you have to teach about ammunition, I am not impressed. Please stop arguing about who has the biggest dick and stick to the stated topic, ammunition comparison.

  44. +1 Neighborcat
    I was kinda hoping that someone could offer an intelligent opinion on the pros and cons of the 7mm Rem Mag for deer hunting and general target shooting, but it seems that this site is dedicated to the measurement of genitalia (and perhaps amateur spell checking).

  45. The 7mm Mag is a good round in general. It's powerful, accurate, and more available and less expensive than some other esoteric calibers. Some friends of mine in Arkansas had them and had no complaints about their performance.

  46. What is the differnece between a 30-06 and a .308

  47. I manage a large sheep staiton in South Australia and am looking to purchase a high posered rifle for feral animal control. We have a big problem with feral goats, pigs and over-population of Kangaroos - now before you start getting wierd about shooting our national emblem, these roos cause incredible damage to fences, yards, troughs and watering points, competing with livestock and driving up prices for you the consumer - anyway, we are not looking to eradicate kangaroos, but to reduce their numbers to an acceptable level that is set by the Australian Pastoral Board. Enough of that!
    I want to comapre hunting rifles in the capacities of 22/250, 222, 223 (5.65mm), 308 (7.62mm) and 30-30. I need stopping power and accuracy up to about 150 metres, with consideration to cost per shot and reloading. Can anyone give an intelligent and reasonable response, preferably with some real knowledge about these calibres and reloading or can you suggest a more suitable round?
    Thank you gentlemen.

  48. Roger, the difference between the 30/06 and the .308 is nothing more than length of the cartridge. The .308 is a 7.62 by 51 millimeter. The 30/06 is a 7.62 by 63 millimeter. The 30/06 got its name from being a .30 caliber rifle cartridge designed in 1906.

  49. Anybody here know anything about Alaska Backpacker Ammo? There is no address on the package and I have not been able to find anything out about it online.

  50. Well, outside of the entertaining exchanges I've read that date a few months back, this has been an interesting blog.

    It sounds like many of you, like me, might find this site to be very helpful:

    They have lots of good info on long range guns and shooting but the info on ammo was interesting as well. And I'm thinking of purchasing a .308 from this company:

    I've considered a .50 cal, but that would represent more of a much more expensive toy than anything practical, for my purposes.

    Anyone got any suggestions for high quality, accurate ammo for the .308 - brands, types, grains, etc.?

  51. Jack,

    As you include feral pigs in your pest eradication list, I would exclude the .222. All of the other cals are fine with proper projectiles & bullet placement. If the ferals are moving & there are a lot of 'em : a Marlin 336 in 30/30 or even better a Rem 760 pump in 308 are effective and can be loaded economically.

    A reliable, low-powered variable 'scope (2-7 X) will give you all the flexibility & precision you need from 15 to 200 yds.

    I have hunted the afore-mentioned pests across S.A. , Qld & N.S.W. for the past 30 years, so I can appreciate your local conditions & constrictions (John Howards gun laws).

    Jack, for a more detailed response, you can contact me directly.

  52. Hello again ladies and gents,
    As to the gent who wants to know what to shoot pigs and roos and such with I have this suggestion. I feel you should find a rifle you are comfortable shooting and that you can shoot well regardless of the caliber, within reason of course. I as an avid hunter and shooter feel that shot placement is much more important than the size of the bullet you shoot. If you are shooting a .50 cal at a pig and miss you still miss, but if you have a gun you are comfortable with and you can shoot it well the size of the bullet is less important than where the bullet goes. I personally have killed white tail deer with a 22 mag, and hogs as well, but you have to be close.
    So go buy a gun with low recoil and ammo you can afford to shoot a lot ( like a Remington 700 in 223 or a 308 ) and shoot the little bastards in the head or neck, both have good downrange performance and cost per bullet is low.

  53. Jack,
    j8541 is right, caliber should be a secondary consideration. It's the man, not the machine. If you're thinking of availability, the .243, 308, 30-30, and the 30/06 are some of the most popular calibers and have proven themselves time and time again. Another option is a 12 guage with slugs. You should be able to get a slug barrel that can fire slugs out to ranges of up to 200 meters. And 12 guage is quite common.

  54. What are some accurate 7.62x51mm (.308) manufacturers?

    I have one of 1000 Remington M40 Replicas that they produced last year with a replica ART scope made by Leatherwood. and a Leupold Mark 4.

    I'm thinking some military surplus, but only in above 168grain, preferably 172-175 grain. It's cheaper cost/round and I won't have to purchase it that often because it comes in mass quantities. I'm not looking to shoot it in any matches, it is just for hunting deer and shooting random stuff with.

    Yes, I know I could opt for getting other less expensive 7.62x51mm, but I would rather shoot nice ammunition through my M40.

  55. Mike,
    First of all, congratulations on buying one of those repros. Now let me tell you how to get the most out of it. As an avid shooter I take shooting very seriously and I assume you do to. There are two ways to look at this, I will address them one at a time going from the best to close to best. First way is to buy some bullets with good brass and just burn a box or two through the weapon ,collect the brass and use a bench rest neck resizing tool but do not resize the whole case, this custom fits the brass to your gun specifically, then reload them as you normally would. Every round we shot (except in a combat situation) was collected and shipped back to Quantico Va. And reloaded for our specific rifle by marines who all they did was work on sniper rifles all day. the second and probably the easiest way is to go to a gun store and buy a box or every type .308 ammo they have. Take the weapon to the range and shoot a group or two from each box and see what your rifle likes. Find the one that gives you the best group and use it. It is odd but true that two of the same model rifles built on the same day by the same person will perform differently with the same ammo. Some good ones to try are black hills, hornady, federal premium and Remington, just to name a few.
    That gun with good ammo is quite capable of shooting straighter than you can hold it in most situations. While with STA we all could put 5 shots on target at 1000 yards on a standard silhouette qualification target.
    This is just my professional opinion and is subject to scrutiny from anyone, but it works for me and I shoot a lot and I buy a lot of guns so go give either one a chance and let me know how it turns out for you

    P.S. I forgot to mention to make you shoot from a good bench rest to remove as much human error from the equation as possible, at as close to 100 yards as possible. That way you know that the results are from the ammo not the shooter. good luck

  56. Has anyone had a field test of the new Hornady Leverlution (I think that's right, I see a few guys have gotten drilled for grammer here) ammunition for the 30-30 yet? I bought a couple of boxes and haven't had time to try them out. A bit expensive at $20.00 a box (VS the normal $11.50 for 170 grain Winchester ammo) so I was curious if they lived up to the hype. The ammo is supposed to make the 30-30 comparable in accuracy to the .270 at 200 yards or so the clerk told me.

    If I get some time off, I will try them out and post the feedback.

    By the way I was active Army for eight years, and in my opinion all the armed forces have some issues but all have there place in the bigger picture -VICTORY- in a god forsaken country that hates us.

  57. The ammo is actually called Leverevolution by Hornady before I get jumped about it. The shells are 160 grain and the web-site said the zero drop is 175 yards for the 30-30. The clerk said 200 yards, but I guessing maybe a half inch for the other 25. Unlike most people I actually buy my ammunition from a gun store, I think the clerks at Wallmart are underpaid and overworked. I am curious what the forum comes up with about this ammo. Also I have an HMR 17, and I was just curious if anyone else love this little rifle as much as I do.

  58. I've been thinking about getting a .17 HMR. How are they? Seems like they'd be fun and inexpensive and would probably wreak havoc on squirrels.

  59. .22 works just as well.

  60. Hammer Man, Please let me know how that Leverevolution ammo works out for you. I'm getting a 45/70 soon and would like to know how it performs. Thanks.

  61. Hey kids
    Hammer …..I have done a lot of reasearch on those hornady bullets (lever doo dads)and from what I have heard they seem to be great bullets. With them being a spitzer bullet instead of a flat or round end bullet means that they will be longer and have to be seated farther in the case to keep over all length, they should have a grerater bullet coefecient than their flat or round end counterparts. As far as how they will shoot ….hornady don't usually make junk and I have never had them preform badly in any of my weapons …so if you kill something with them I guess they work……sadly I don't have a weapon that is chambered in any of the calibers they currently offer, but would love to have a good lever 45-70
    Good luck and happy shooting

    As far as the 17 issue..i had one, i jumped on the 17 band waggon. I had a heavy barrel savage bolt gun with all the bells and whistles and some pretty nice glass on shot extreemly well..with average groups at 50 yards almost the same hole. But shooting small game with it was no more efficent than my 10/22. They were just as dead as with the .17. Me being me i shot the .17 weekly and everytime i would put at least 200 rounds through it a weekend..well at 13 dollars per 50 it got real I sold it but it was fun and i would not tell anyone not to buy one it is just that my 22 kills fuzzytails and the like just as dead as the 17 and alot cheaper too

  62. Thanks for the advice. Maybe I won't get one, then 😉

  63. I meant the .17.

  64. I just wanted to wish you all a merry Christmas and a happy New Year before I go on vacation for a week. Thanks for the info about the Hornady ammo. I just have to tell you all that the guys are right about the 22 Long Rifle working just as well, but I own a Stevens 22 (semi), a Mossburg 22 mag (bolt) and the Marlin 17 HMR (bolt), but when I go squirrel hunting I just LOVE using the 17. Maybe because it's newer. Go figure.

    However, if Santa Clause is out there and he gives a crap about the Hammer Man, he knows I have been eye balling the dickins out of this Browning, lever action 30-06 at my local gun store. It's not new but its a sweety. Be good, be safe and happy holidays to all you gun lovin peeps out there.

  65. Hey kids its me again...
    I am looking to buy a ruger mk model and was wondering if any of you had one you were willing to part with. Condition is not an issue as long as it functions. Finish and barrel length is not an issue either. So if you have one leave a comment and i will give you my e mail address...oh yea i am looking to spend around $150.00 -$175.00

  66. I'm pretty inexperienced, so bear with me, please. I'm 56 y/o and haven't shot much since teen years, but I have the money to make a reasonably advanced initial purchase. I've become captivated with purchasing a Tikka T3 for range use in Hawaii where I live and or long range and varmint type plinking when I visit Michigan yearly. I'll probably go with a Leupold VXIII 4-14 scope. I can't decide on caliber. Considerations are:
    --Ballistic accuracy, obviously.
    --Probably don't want a Magnum to avoid developing a flinch. Even with a muzzle defuser, I'm a bit leary of starting with 300 Win mag.
    --Cost per round is important.
    --flexibility of ammo is important, particularly if I ever decide to pursue larger game hunting (sheep on the Parker ranch of the big island of Hawaii is a possibility).

    Considering all of the above, my thoughts are: 30-06, 308, and 270. Any help would be appreciated.

  67. If you plan to hunt small game i would suggest a .243 or .270 for long range shooting. anything bigger is too much for sheep. 🙂

  68. Maybe even a .223. I know it seems alittle small but i got my first two deer with one. Zach

  69. Ron,

    The other day I was buying ammo, and for the standard 30-06 150 grain it was about six to seven dollars cheaper per twenty on the average then the 270 and a lot cheaper then the 300. My brother has a 270 BAR and a REM 300 Mag, and unless your a half mile away the 270 is just fine. I on the other hand love my 30-06 to death for both accuracy, power and value.

    I am assuming that since the 30-06 is so common, the shells are a little cheaper. I could be wrong about that, but it kills my brother that he pays more for ammo then I do.

    You can go to the Winchester and Remington web-sites to see the ballistics reports.

  70. Thanks for the reply(s). I was just about ready to decide on the .270, when this last comment came in. It seems that everyone really, really loves their -06, which is why I keep coming back to it. Any input on the relative intensity of kick. Like I say, I've been warned that if I want to get into long range shooting, I don't want to develop a flinch.

  71. I prefer my .308 over pretty much anything. It's recoil isn't unbearable. It's large enough to hunt deer and shoot accurately at relatively long ranges. Plus, you can purchase surplus ammunition for going to the shooting range and messing around.

    I've only shot a .30-06 once and I don't remember the recoil, so I can't compare to it.

  72. I have shot both the 30-30, 270 and 30-06 on the same outings on several occasions. It suprises me that my 30-30 seems to pack as much of a kick as the 270, but not quite as much as the 30-06 and neither kick as hard as the 300. I would compare the 270 and 30-30 to a 20 gauge shotgun. The 30-06 would be like a 16 gauge, and the 300 close to a 12. It's a different kind of kick though, stiffer, probably due to the lack of a recoil pad found on most shotguns. None are unbearable, but if any get you flinching, it would probably be the 300. I don't own a 308, but would imigine it's kick to be similar to the 30-30.

    I was watching a gun show, and the two gentlemen picked the best caliber they thought had ever been made. One man chose some 7mm (ish) russian special as his all time favorite, the other chose the 308. I have heard good things about that caliber before.

  73. MiK,
    I have settled on the Tikka T3, SS Varmint in .308 cal, with Leopold 4-14X Scope.
    I recently had a mate come out with a T3 .270, with the same scope and was very impressed, but decided on the .308 for ammo availability. The .270 was extremely nice to hold and shoot, and my best kill was a big Billy at 560 metres. That's an honest shot.
    The only delay now is getting the licence... So far it has taken over 3 months, and now I have to do a TAFE training course, then after that it should be a month before I get the licence, then I reckon I have to wait another month before I can buy my first gun.
    The Station has just been sold, so the policy on hunting should be a bit more relaxed, meaning that shooters will be allowed on my invitation only.
    My licence will only allow for repeating (bolt action) centrefire rifles, and 10 shot self loading rimfire, and 5 shot self loading or pump action shot guns.

  74. Hey Jack,

    I think you have made a great choice in the Tikka S/S .308 & Leopold scope
    combination. An efficient, hard hitting and durable rig to be sure, I
    commend your decision.

    It's a shame that in recent years it's become such a hassle for an honest
    citizen in this country to prove themselves worthy of getting a licence and
    access to suitable firearms.

    I still have fond memories of shooting some meat for the pot in S.A. when I
    was opal mining with my dad.

    Jack, time will pass soon enough and you will be able to put your new bit of
    kit to use, no worries at all.

    Best Regards,

    Gore Hill N.S.W

  75. Hammerman,

    I'm pretty sure the Russian round, the 7.62x54r, is more like a .308 (7.62x51mm). I actually own both a .308 and a 7.62x54r. they have the same width, but the Russian is a little longer. unless they mean the little AK 7.62x39( I believe) round, which I have never shot.

    I'm not a huge fan of the Russian 7.62x54r. The .308 is more accessible and more accurate. And the older Mosin-Nagant's don't have any recoil pads or anything to reduce reconil.

    I would choose the .223 as my favorite caliber ever made. little recoil, for close encounters; pretty accurate, accurate out to 500yards with a nice rifle, good shooter, and match ammo; it travels over 3,000fps. and it's easily available. The .223 lacks punch though. that's the one thing the .308 has over the .223.

  76. Mike,
    I figured out a long time ago that I tend to over-due things. I know I don't need a 30-06 to kill a scrawny Florida deer (at least in my area) but I just love the thing. All this discussion(plus my brothers friend who flat out only hunts with a 308) has made me think about buying one of my own. For hog, I think my 30-30 or my 12 Gauge is still the best choice. The brush is too thick to be waving a scoped rifle around when the dogs get rolling.

    I have lots of brothers and I think the bottom line is we just like to be vercitle. My one brother owns a 7mm, another brother has a 30-06 and the last has a 300. The first and last also have 270's that they "actually" use to hunt with. Me, I have my 30-06 and my 30-30, and maybe, just maybe a 308 if I can convince the wife how much I need it.

  77. I still have not made a final decision on the Tikka caliber, but these discussions currently have me leaning to the .308. The ballistics are slightly better than the -06 and there seems to be as many reasonable deals on bulk ammo as for the -06 or .270. Still, these other two calibers remain in contention.

    I will probably go with the stainless steel Lite Tikka. For aesthetic reasons, I really wish I could get the walnut stock of the Hunter version with stainless steel. (I then would even consider bluing the barrel for further aesthetics. ) Unfortunately, I'm told that custom orders like this can't be done.

    I've found some reasonable deals for a Leupold VXIII 4-14x on EBay but haven't committed yet on this, either. Time to get past top-dead-center, I suppose.

  78. Well, I gave my 22 Mag to my brother (it was our dad's rifle and I want him to pass it onto his son, I have no blood children of my own) thinking my .17 Hmr would fill the gap but I miss it now. I think the 22mag is my favorite caliber of all time. I can remember my pops stopping the truck and pulling that rifle (Filled with hollow points) out to pop fox squirrels (before they were indangered that was like hitting the lotto when you killed one of them) from the top of these Southern Yellow pine trees with deadly accuracy. I mean shooting the eyeball out of the squirrel. He never used a scope, he just had a Belair cigarette butt under the sight elevation for adjustment.

    I'm sure my .17 or heck even a regular .22 LR would work as well, but for some reason those images leave a lasting impression about the accuracy of the 22 Mag.


  79. I finally got my .300 Win Mag zeroed today. It was one hell of an ordeal. I cleaned it throughly a few weeks ago and knew that I would have to re-zero it. I didn't know cleaning it would throw the zero so far off. It was shooting about 18 inches low and about 10 inches to the right. I started with the target 100 yards away, then had to move it to 50 yards, then 25. I was finally able to zero it at 25, then zeroed it at 100. I went through a lot of ammo, too. Both my wallet and shoulder are feeling it. It'll all be worth it this coming weekend when a buddy of mine and I go a few miles out of town to hunt black bear and caribou.

  80. Ron,

    Honestly I'm not familiar with Tikka. I took a look at the product online, looks like they make a very nice weapon. I do most of my shopping at my local gun shop, and haven't seen that particular rifle brand in the store where I can actually hold one.

    In my opinion, all the calibers you are considering are very capable of making the types of shots within the 100-200yd range that would bring down medium game with ease.

    Good luck with the decision, and don't forget about the 7mm, it's a very powerful, well rounded rifle caliber as well.


  81. Hey kids
    Well I have been out of the loop for a little while but as I read the last couple post I see I have not missed much, just wanted you guys to know that tikka is made by the same company that whetherby is made by… they are the same weapons . kinda like Toyota and lexus and chevy and GMC.
    I personally have never owned one but I know people who do and they swear to me they are really good guns. As far as the caliber goes , I have stated before that to a degree and within reason size does not matter. I personally like a .300 win mag and the 7 mag. Both have awesome terminal ballistics and on a good weapons platform will shoot well. As a marine with STA we used the 762 nato (.308) in our m40’s. I like the limited recoil of that bullet. The .300 and 7 mag are not going to kill you at the range but both will let you know you have pulled the trigger, but both have significantly more felt recoil that a .308 would on the same platform. I promise that if you shot a deer or something of like size and structure one would not kill one more dead that the others.(people for that matter).
    And hammer man...I too have a tendency to overdo things, so I appreciate a man with the same views on life as I do …I really like shooting prairie dogs … I love shooting them with the ole .300. The results are colorful. Feel you would have made a good marine… why kick the door in when you can blow down with an AT-4.

  82. Hi,
    I have a question about a certain type of ammunition. What is the difference between a 7mm RemMag and a 7mm-08? I am looking for a high power accurate rifle and have been looking into the Weatherby Vanguard Synthetic 7mm-08. But I have never fired or even heard of the 7mm-08. Anyone with experiene, help is much appreciated. Thanks.

  83. i also stubbled across this page looking for information on ammunition and i found this conversation concerning j8541 and various others...

    being raised by a Marine mother, grandfather, and having a Marine aunt and Uncle, both Master Gunnys, i must say i understand this Marine mentallity. i myself am enlisted in the USMC and ship out for Paris Island come October.

    i guess what i'm saying is Ooh Rah and continue to not take shit.

  84. [quote comment="41878"]hey mat...where do i is a small and wasted mind that can only think of one way to spell a word....but never the less thank you for pointing out a simple spelling error.But unless you have anything helpful or smart or even reasonable funny it is better to have me assume you are a retard then to post a retarded comment such as the above and remove any doubt from my mind that you are a about the caliber of marines they produce these a leader of men who put their life in the line everyday to give retards like you (mat)the freedom to be retarded and make dumb ass post like the above one...on numerious missions all of my marines came home including myself.some injuries some serious but we all came home and the bad guys died and the mission was completed. So i beg you to go talk to your local marine recruiter and sign up.and just see if you have what it takes to be one of the few and the proud and put your very life on the line and come home to have a punk ass correct you on a spelling error and judge the kind of person you are on that ...........simper fi[/quote]
    1. FYI- 99.9999999% of words have only one correct spelling, doing it differently is quite simply, incorrect.
    2. There are two spaces after a period followed by a word, if the paragraph continues, with the first letter capitalized.
    3. You seem to know your stuff but your grammar and spelling make you seem less credible. Use spelling and grammar checks and people will be more likely to believe what you are saying.
    4. Name calling also makes you seem less credible.
    5. If everyone follows these simple guidelines the quality of these threads will increase drastically.

  85. "Simper Fi"? This self-appointed expert of all things Marine Corps seems to know a lot.......except the correct spelling of a motto ON THE EAGLE, GLOBE, AND ANCHOR MARINE EMBLEM. Further reading of his posts reveals that what he knows is information easily gleaned from watching Mail Call and the movie Jarhead. If J8541 got any of his information from books, his literary skills indicate that reading them must have been an enormous undertaking for him.
    To be perfectly honest, I don't think he's ever been any closer to being in the military (let alone the Marines) than playing Counterstrike in his parents' basement.
    Lastly, how can someone who spells (and surely speaks) so horribly dare to talk about giving anyone the "freedom to be retarded and make dumb ass posts".

  86. wow!!! j8541! Did you just get out of boot or what? Suzy? BOOT!!Lol did your PMI give you the specifics on the SASR? I bet you are actually like legal admin, maybe a winger with a low reg. the field is probably being somewhere without a/c or hot chow. Poser!! As far as is it "legal" to shoot people with the .50 BMG yes, it is just like it's okay to call for fire from the 155's or drop Mk-84's on enemy positions. Don't fast movers strafe troops in the open? They use anything from 20mm to 30mm on aircraft. the 50 ain't the worst thing that can be done, LOL BOOT FING TARD!!

  87. One more thing don't talk down to people. Marines should be like Knights from old times. We made the choice to fight for those who can't or won't fight for themselves. I love my country and our way of life so much I'd kill you for it.

  88. To be fair, one does not need to be an exemplary speller to be a marine (or ex-marine). I am neither, so my respect may be implied. On the other hand 034181 makes a good point.

  89. My dear sirs, if I must I will explain my marine corp career for my little morterman friend, but first I must commend this young man on being aggressive toward someone who claims to have been a marine without knowing him personally. Marines are very proud of what and who they are and don’t like people saying they are marines when they are not. But if I must assure this marine of my service to my country i will. 24 aug 1998 I get on the foot prints at parris island. 15 weeks later I cross the parade deck and get to go home for 10 days boot leave.10 days later i report in at camp Gieger for school of infantry. a couple of weeks later I take the recon indoc and placed 2nd over all was just beat on my run time by some kid who runs like a 16 min 3 miles. recon tells us don’t call us we will call you. i graduate from SOI and get orders to report to 2nd bn 6th marines echo company, who by the way is going to CAX like a week after i check in. i go to CAX with my unit and STA is running an indoc so I take it and get accepted. Sometime later I go to camp Lejeunes sniper school( really wanted to go to Quantico Va.)I graduate from there and got my first secondary mos of 8541. Soon thereafter good ole recon comes a calling and I get orders to report to French creek and I put on my rope and now I’m with 2nd recon bn alpha company and I get put in to the pipeline waiting for ARS in Va beach / little creek Va. . While in the pipeline i get my silver basic wings and my silver bubble. After I graduate from ARS I get my other secondary mos’s 0321 and 8654 my gold wings and got put in Force Company note hence the 8654 mos. Got to do some deployments and some dog and pony things and some things I am not at liberty do discuss. Soon thereafter all of that some people decided to crash a plane into the world trade buildings and Cpl Henderson was a short timer and got stop lost for a year and within 36 hours of the second plane crashing Cpl Henderson and his band of merry men were in the wonderful country of Afghanistan taking pictures and putting rounds down range at some tangos. After that little vacation I got to go to the wonderful country or Iraq to take some more pictures and put more rounds down range. On 27 aug 2003 I got my DD214 and went home with all of my fingers and toes and only losing 5 friends that I know of to date. So if you have any more questions comments gripes or complaints my morter dropping friend please feel free to approach me with them. Oh by the way where were you on the the morning of 11 sep 2001. A copy of some of my SRB is available upon request and the possession of the appropriate clearance. On my page 11 you will find out why I was only a Cpl (twice) and never made Sgt.

  90. It is not the critic who counts, not the one who points out how the strong man stumbled or how the doer of deeds might have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred with sweat and dust and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement; and who, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."

    Some people were put on this earth to be doctors, lawyers, sissies and queers.Some people were put on this earth to protect those listed above by hunting and killing other men.

    Which one are you Mr, that guy?

    1. I am none of these. And neither are you. At least not someone who was put on this earth to hunt and kill other men. I'm certain that you're not a doctor or lawyer and surely not an English professor, for sure.
      Nice biography, by the way. Which month's Soldier of Fortune magazine did you acquire that gem from?
      One last thing: There is something that is often more important than a security clearance that is required to access a personnel file. Impress me by telling me what that is. Impress me more by not spelling like a lobodomy patient when you do.
      "Simper" Fi, I'm still laughing!!

  91. It Is Not The Critic Who Counts
    "It is not the critic who counts, not the one who points out how the strong man stumbled or how the doer of deeds might have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred with sweat and dust and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement; and who, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."

  92. Mr. Mortar man
    I can see how you might assume that I am a boot and that I can acquire all of the information from games or may be a winger or some other type of pog,but my friend I can assure you that I was not any of the above. I did however have a low reg…but it is because 2nd recon BN let us get away with it. I should not have to try to prove to you or anyone for that mater of the service I gave my country. But I will give you a break down of my career if it helps you sleep better at night. .24 august 1998 I stepped on the yellow foot prints out side receiving Bn parris island.Soon there after I was off to camp Geiger Nc.there I took the recon indoc…passed it with the second highest pt score (beaten only by a fellow who ran like a 16 min 3 mile.)after I graduated I got orders to 2nd Bn 6th marines echo Co. Who was soon to go to a CAX in cali.while at CAX STA was running an indoc so I took it,passed it and got lat moved from e company to H&S compant and put into STA.Soon thereafter I went to sniper school at Camp Lejeune and passed and got the 8541 mos.within a few weeks recon sends me some orders to report to 2nd recon bn…so I go put on my rope and put in the pipe line and RIPs. While in RIPS I get my silver basic wings and complete pre scuba and scuba school and get my silver bubble. Then I get to go to ARS in little creek Va. graduate from there and go back to camp lejeune and get to be an 0321 and take off the rope,do some gear and slick jumps and get my gold wings and put in force company and another mos of 8654. Got do some deployments and some dog and pony shows during all of this but on the morning of 11 September 2001 some bad people crashed some planes into the world trade center. Within 36 hours I in the wonderful country of Afghanistan putting rounds down range at some of those bad people I mentioned earlier. Got involuntarily extended for 6 months twice and had the pleasure of going to the cat box referred to as Iraq to put some more rounds down range and lower the population of the bad people who brought global terror to our door steps. Got my DD214 on 27 august 2003 as a Cpl. Never made it to Sgt but a copy of my SRB is available upon request if you have the proper clearance if not a copy of pg 11 is available if you want it if you want to know why I never made it to Sgt.
    And in my defense as to my grammar ands use / molestation of the written English language, my brain works a lot faster than I can type and my focus is on relaying information. So as long as the reader gets the point my mission was a success .And you as an 03 should know that marines do not get paid for their methods…we get paid for our results.
    Carry on marine…and I thank you for your service.

  93. Yo listen the .22 is very very deadly just as deadly as that big .50 cal. By the way Eric is wrong with how the 9mm lugar got it's name. When the 9mm was first imported to America during the time of the world wars the lugar pistol was the most popular 9mm pistol know to Americans. Althought at that time 9mm was popular world wide, the Americans love of larger caliber handguns left us out of the loop. At that time the most well know handgun that used this relitively new 9mm round was the luger. That's how is got ist name, as a Marketing ploy! As a matter of fact the creator of the 9mm was Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken, who was the first company to produce the luger. infact the round was designed for the luger. The 9mm luger is better know world wide as the 9mm Parabelumn. Parabellum is derived from the Latin: Si vis pacem, para bellum ("If you seek peace, prepare for war")

  94. Mr that guy
    the privacy act of 1974 prohibits anyone from looking at anything in your military record without signed written consent from the individual.
    And as for my service to my country and you doubting sounds like to me you are the kind of person who reads SOF and watches mail call and plays counterstrike , maybe not in your mothers basement but perhaps in the living room. You dream of being the man that walks the wire to defend our great nations freedoms, but you lack the intestinal fortitude or maybe the courage to do so. If this is true do not criticize me for mine because i do and more importantly did not lack the courage to do makes you look petty and sad. Unless you have served our country in any form i do not see how you have any room to take shots at those of us who have. if you have nothing to say about anything else but my grammar and a misspelled word ( as important as it may be ) perhaps you should just return to your dreams of being someone like me and finish your navy seal workout video.

    P.S. i wish the only thing that i had to do was to impress you. as i am sure it would be easier to impress your girlfriend. Or your mother for that matter!

    1. Wrong again!!
      It's a concept called "Need to Know". Also, intestinal fortitude and courage are the same thing.
      I am not criticizing anyone's service in the armed forces. What I am criticizing, however, is someone who is clearly not what he says he is.
      You say that you wish the only thing you had to do is impress me. That's easy. All you have to do is stick to the truth (a seemingly impossible task for you) and communicate in a manner that
      resembles concise. The remark about my girlfriend and my mother was rich. Is that really the best you can do? That's right up there with comebacks like "Your Mama", "I know you are, but what am I?"

    2. J8541, I have a few things to say to you, and a lot of these other guys as well. I, like many here, came here to find info on ammo, and instead I've followed this ridiculous series of posts. I thought it was over, but some feel the need to bring up a spelling issue from what? A post from a year ago, or close to a year? J8541, I have nothing but respect for you and your fellow Marines, as well as all from other branches as well. It's sad to me that some here seem to take enjoyment in insulting you over grammar. It embarrasses me as an American. Sometimes you can take only so much, and I have taken as much as I can stand here. I don't know you from Adam, J8541, but for what it's worth, I'm sorry for insults you've tollerated. I think some others owe you an apology as well. Take care. Pat

  95. Oh I almost forgot to tell you guys' right after Christmas I went to a g&n show and picked up a Remington 700 SPS tactical in .308. It is an awesome platform. I love it. If you can find one you should get it. With federal match ammo at 100 yards you can cover the group with a nickle. Maybe with a dime if you had a better rest. But anyway you look at it it will shoot better than most people.

  96. The .22 is not deadly. that is probably the most ridiculous comment I've ever heard.

    Any bullet or projectile is deadly if fired fast enough to break the skin, and if the shooter is good enough to hit the vital organs.

  97. And I own one of the Remington 700 SSA M40 Replicas they were selling a couple of years ago.

    It's deadly accurate too.

  98. well i thought it was funny anyways. I am a big fan of "your momma" jokes...they make me laugh. but anyways...this little pissing contest you want to have with me is over. I do not have to nor will I continue to carry on this silly argument over military service.But i will not have a battle of wits with an unarmed man. Go down and sign up for the air force or something or go join the marines matters nothing to me...but don't judge a man you know nothing about...even if you think you do. Without meeting me or knowing me personally a wise man would give the other the benefit of the doubt. I am not a great speller. I am not an English major and i must admit to you sir you are more versed on writing on nonsense rant pages than I am. But if you want something broken , burnt , shot or destroyed...let me know i did it for a little over five years...and was damn good at until next time.
    sEmper Fi LOL i just realized something...spellcheck changes semper fi to simper fi without telling you it did it so that may explain the where the seemingly obvious type O that's funny!

  99. You'll not have a battle of wits with an unarmed man, huh? I'm not the one who misspelled countless words, misquoted the Geneva Convention, and generally brayed like an ass. So I ask who the unarmed man here is. Maybe arguing with a brick is more your speed.
    Another thing, don't blame Spell Check for your misspelling of "Semper Fi". Given the number of other misspellings in that very post, I'll guess that you are, in fact, lying or that your Spell Check isn't working. One would lean toward the former or perhaps a third option: you are an idiot as well as a liar.

  100. that are a god among insects
    i am so glad sir that this world is filled with people like you.
    you may talk all the shit you want sir but you know and i know that the reason you have taken an obvious dislike to me is that i am in fact the person you want to be and it makes you mad that you can not nor will not ever be that person. you sit in that computer chair of yours and in between some sissy faggy computer games you searched for some type of ammo comparison and found this site it all falls back on the fact that those who can not ...teach. you google military videos and navy seal workouts and dream of being someone in those videos. but you sir can never be. my poop has more courage than you have now or will ever possess . you sir are weak and you try to make your self feel better by pointing out how the strong man stumbled or how the doer of deeds could have done them better. but you have never had to walk the wire or put your ass in harms way to defend those who can not or will not defend themselves. so i dare ..i dare you to critique my spelling or grammer about anything but perhaps how to play a video game any further. and further more your opinion of me or what i did or did not do is of no consequence to how petty you about a thank you or a job well done. it is not my fault you are now or will never be anything but a petty person who had hopes and dreams of being someone he is not nor will never be. so with that being said say something about a miss spelled word or dangling participle or how a comma was not used where it was supposed to be. but be sure sir that your opinion means nothing to me. as much fun as it was to read your little post to see how your punk ass would retort to my post ...your gibberish and disbelief of who i am or am not will fall on deaf ears ( or in this case blind eyes ) because as meaningless as they are to me i will not dignify your comments with a response anymore...maybe you can get some of your buddies to get on here and say something about me...if you can get them away from their video games long enough to do so. and i just want to know why what i did or didn't do in or with my life matters to you at all.why do you care so much. well i hope you all the best in life and hope that one day you can look in the mirror and be proud of the person you see.
    good day sir

  101. j8541 and "That Guy": as far as I'm concerned, you're both idiots. This is my blog and I encourage you to scroll all the way up and look at the original post. It likely has nothing to do with the drivel you've both been spewing, and even if it does, you're both dis-invited from further posts.

    Post any more and they'll be deleted. Simple as that.

  102. sorry

  103. Hmmmmmm!!! Well... after reading thru four and a half years of posts discussing movies watched, video games played, name calling (uncalled for BTW), truth/accuracies challenged, the best trained/qualified branch of the military, lessons in grammar & spelling, etc..... I guess it was worth it all to gleen a little information on ammo. 😎 LOL

    Since it seems acceptable to opine, I'll add my personal thoughts on rifle of choice. Naturally it all comes down to utility and personal taste/choice. My choice for an "all around" rifle would be a .308 (military designation - 7.62 NATO).

    A Springfield Armory M1a (military M-14) as my first choice. HOWEVER..... if cost didn't fit into the equation I'd go for the H & K 91 or the H & K SR-9. This is based on my personal experience. There may be other rifles equal to or better than either. If so, I'd be interested in hearing about them.

    Anyone have any experience with the Ruger Mini-30?

  104. in hopes of this not being deleted
    I have owned both the mini 14 and mini 30 and both are decent guns...however they are a little cheaply made. If I were going to buy a 762x39 or a 223 semi auto I would buy an AR-15 of some sorts or an AK. On my 30 the mag wiggled a little and the function left some things to be desired. several failures until it had like a million rounds through it.They may have come a long way since the models I had in my youth.

  105. Thanks, j8514!
    I don't think you're likely to have a post deleted when it's on topic.

    You mentioned "failures". What specific failures did you experience? Jams, misfire, or what???

    I guess my preference for the 7.62 mm is based my experience from the late 60s. At that time we were trained on M-14s and were still carrying them stateside when I was released from active duty in '72. During my 5 years I developed a distrust for the M-16. The earlier models had a cast aluminum bolt which was famous for it's serious malfunction under heavy usage. Lives were lost in the 'hot zone' and that remains tattooed somewhere in my brain.

    They were later improved with a brass bolt. Still I have this distrust, perhaps it's mostly psychological, for M-16s which happen to be the double first cousin to the AR-15. I've read and heard good things about them (the AR-15) but I'd probably need some experience with one before I'd invest in one or trust my life to one.
    Oh! Thanks for the response.


  106. well to address the failure issue
    there were failure to feeds some but mostly failure to eject. the mini series from ruger is based on the m14 and its variants. our dm rifles were and are m14 . but in shrinking the gun some changes were made to make it work on a smaller scale.Not bad guns at all...just needed to be broke in or better quality control at the factory. A lot of people have the same issues and some have no issues and love them. As for the m16 ar15 issue...leaps and bounds of refining the weapon platform have been made in the last few decades. the addition of a forward assist, non chrome lined barrels and chambers and so on. and the ability to customize an upper or lower on an ar15 in almost only limited to your imagination. but the platform is sound and all the bugs have been worked out by now. But the choice is yours ...i'm not going to say don't buy one (mini 14/30) but if you want a good 7.62x39 the Bulgarian aresenal AK47 is by far one of the best AK you can buy...all milled receiver and the fin and finish

  107. sorry... the fit and second to none.

  108. Chilibill,
    I've heard of the multiple failings that the M16 had when it was first introduced into service. But now after over 40 years in service, a lot of those kinks have been worked out. I know that a test the Army's Research and Development (at least I think that's who did it) put the M16's shorter successor, the M4 carbine, last in reliability out of 5 others if I'm not mistaken. While it may have scored poorly, I've had no problems with mine and I've put thousands of rounds through it. I even put about 1100 rounds through mine during one day on the range without a single malfunction. I just CLP on it between iterations. I also carried that same rifle to Iraq where it saved my skin more than once.

  109. Firstly. I'll apologize ahead of time for bringing the pissing match back up. But I felt the need to comment on a few things.

    "you google military videos and navy seal workouts and dream of being someone in those videos. but you sir can never be. my poop has more courage than you have now or will ever possess ."

    -Now, I'll state this for the record. I'm 16. I've been doing SEAL workouts for the past 2 years(Every 2-3 days. Give or take.) And will probably be going to the "Extreme SEAL Experiance" run by Don Shipley to get an idea what I'm in for(Obviously, Joining the SEALs). Is it common practice in the Core to piss on people who possiably will be shareing cover with you in the future?(This is retorical).
    Yes, The Marines are a bunch of badass's that are a huge help to the United States Miliary. But don't forget. You are not -the- Military. Without the Navy you would have never gotten to Iraq. And without the guys in an office pushing pencils and paying their taxes, you wouldn't have a salary, equipment, or a job. So please, Don't piss on the people who your fighting to protect.

    Semper Fidelis=Alaways Faithful. I thought this was common knowledge?

    Yes, you have horriable spelling, grammer, and punctuation. But I still knew what your saying without having to reread it. So its satisfactory in my opion(Maybe because I can't do those things myself. HA!) But, When it comes to rhetoric, people will pull apart your arguement simply for the fact it wasn't said smooth enough.

    Most the people in the world are ignorant and weak(Strength is more than muscle). And must depend on men better than themselves to remain free. But if you condem them instead of trying to break the mold they have set for themselves. You will only see an increase of the thing you are fighting. And unfortunatly. You(And everyone fighting on your side) would ultimatly lose if we followed that strategy.

    Anyway, Lay off the measure of genitalia over the internet(And off it as well). It just makes you look like a prick, without any of the dick.
    If you are infact still serving when I get deployed, Maybe we'll run across each other(Share a few laughs). But if we do. Can we not measure genitalia? IED's and all that. I'm assuming you share the notion that you want to keep yours attached as well.

  110. oh in case you are confused a little...the 7.62mm that the m-14 shoots is a lot different than the 7.62mm that the AK or mini 30 shoots.

  111. I'm trying to decide on a ccw. I have a m&p 9mm full size and like it very much, being a lefty it is easy to operate with either hand. I'm wanting the same thing to carry only in the compact model, but can't decide on 9mm or .40. Any opinion on which caliber ?
    Thanks, Paul

    1. Paul,
      Either one will do. Of course the .40 packs a bit more punch, but the 9mm is still plenty deadly. You may find that many people (myself included) will be a bit biased toward a larger round. But, as I've mentioned before, caliber (in this case, anything 9mm or bigger) should be a secondary consideration. Try both of them and choose which one feels right. A single hit from a 9mm will count more than any amount of misses from something larger.

    2. FN FiveseveN. That's what I carry. It's bit on the big side, but even the civi ammo will defeat a "bullet proof" vest (, has 20 rounds, it does not over penetrate, shoots straight, creates a .30 wound channel and does not leave traceable grooves on the bullet due to velocity of over 2000 fps.

  112. Paul,
    As far as firearm choice goes for CCW the bullet it shoots should be secondary to the pistol its self. If it were up to the bullet and that only. that pistol that shoots 45 long colt or .410 shotshells would be at the top of the list...i think its a taurus judge. I personally am fond of the .45 acp and carried a glock 21 and a colt 1911 as a CCW, then ibought one of those sig p6 pistols and fell in love with it for carrying around in my waist band. It is a 9mm but the way it feels and the way it rides is second to none in my book. It is not a 45 but it just makes a better CCW for my body type and carry style and now it goes everywhere with me. But if you are going to choose based on bullet only...i would go with the 40 cal. The FBI asked for a bullet to replace the pistols they issued to their agents...i believe it was a 38 or a 357, anyway they did a lot of testing and developed the 10mm bullet. After some test and trials in the lab the 10mm tended to over penetrate allowing most of the energy that it had ( and it had a lot ) to pass through the target instead of the target absorbing the energy causing a larger permanent would canal . So the team went back to the drawing board to address the issues.they lowered the powder charge and shortened the case and the mystical magical 40 cal was far one of the most deadly bullets ever made. Now the above statement is from memory and some of the details are subject to factual scrutiny from anyone who knows them more than I ... so with that being said I would go with the 40 based on its lethality. I personally have seen people hit with a 9mm and continue fighting. Never got to see the 40 on an actual human target but a lot of cop buddies of mine say that the 40 is very close to a one shot drop round and very few people have survived a good solid hit from a 40. But as Joe said 1 hit is better than any number of misses. So i would look at the pistol in question and find one that fits your needs and preforms well and one that you can shoot well. And then worry about the bullet.

  113. oh for clarification...the 10mm caused a small wound canal not a large one...the target absorbing the energy makes a larger permanent wound canal ...after reading my post i realized that it was kinda confusing...sorry guys

  114. Wow, do a lot of posters DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT.

    A: My test of 10mm, 45 cal, FN 5.7, 00 2 1/2 buck on a PASGT vest.

    B: No one posting is or knows an "assassin"

  115. Opps, didn't finish my post.

    The Author is correct. Being 18B and my dad was a Navy SEAL (he did far more black ops then I) I speak from experience. For a range of missions or needs on a mission the 22L is the way to go. I still use my dads Ruger Standard (6 digit serial) purchased in Oakland, CA in 1964 (as he liked to say, goes in to the skull and bounces around a while before stopping). Let's all take a breather and remember 1) we are talking about killing people and 2) You need the right tool for the job. A suppressed HK PDW is a great option also, on the other end a .338 M40 is MUCH easier to hump then a .50 BMG (but gosh the movies make them look good) and the new M110 is a great forward marksmen weapon, even the ancient HK MSG 90 is a wonderful "assassin" tool. I also think the FN 5.7 suppressed is a fantastic gun. I carry one every day. All about what you need and where you are. Let's not forget, the well equipped assassin can use a gun with compressed air that fires ice bullets.

  116. I have a question, and a bit of information regarding the .50 BMG. First, my question is regarding someone who either has an expanded set of ballistics tables, or a range area long enough to determine the bullet drop of a 30-06 firing a 174 grain boattail in a springfield M1903A4 sniper rifle with a 2.5X weaver scope. The question being - how many inches will a 174 grain boattail drop at 700 metres after exiting a 30-06 cartridge? I will assume that the rifle is zeroed at 200 meters. What kind of groups can I expect with said rifle, at that range? I am a writer, and I need the information for a book on operation Market Garden in World War Two. Also, regarding the .50 caliber as a sniper rifle; the Canadian army has used the .50 caliber as their principle sniping rifle for quite some time, with a sniper from Newfoundland breaking US Marine Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock's long range record (set in Vietnam) during the first Coalition attack on the Taliban in Afghanistan (I believe his name was Rob Furlong, and it took him 2 shots, the first being a ranging shot). I believe that the US Army has just adopted the .50 as a primary sniping weapon, although, don't quote me on that. Now, as far as I know, the Geneva Convention has stipulations drawn up against the use of explosive bullets, more than calibers, hence the need for FMJ in military rounds. A .50 BMG with an explosive bullet is definitely more destructive than one with a full metal jacket, although getting hit with any kind of .50, even an FMJ, tends to be, pretty much game over. Ergo, when the 556 mm is supplemented in Special Forces operations with explosive rounds because of the FMJ 556 mm round's lack of knockdown power in shorter barreled weapons like the M4 (testimonial re: the Delta guys who were quickly overrun and killed in Somalia after being dropped on the fallen helicopter with M4s), the Geneva Convention is being violated. Hence, it would probably be wise for these units to carry weapons that fire a larger, heavier bullet, that can still kill the enemy without treading in the dangerous waters of violating the Geneva Convention, which is, after all, an agreement meant to assist those men in the field who actually fight and are wounded, but still survive and must try to lead a decent life afterwards. I did my two years in the Canadian Cameron Highlanders. As a point of reference, the Canadian Army has some good soldiers, but the army is made up of 25% officers. In the 1980s, a Czech Canadian Captain presented research that demonstrated that any army with more than 4-6% of its members belonging to the officer corps, would become increasingly ineffective. Simply put, the grade of officers goes down, the higher the % of officers (anything above 4%) in the military goes up. Then, people start getting killed, or they start to suffer, because the most dangerous element in warfare is a crappy officer responsible for a number of well trained enlisted men. The main reason that the Marines used to function more effectively than other branches of the US military service, is because they used to have about 6% officers, the only branch of service in the US near the necessary minimum. The Army usually had way too many officers, clogging the halls of the Pentagon, tripping over each other on the way to the bathroom, and coming up with too many bright ideas while they were making potty - like adopting the 556mm as the main battle round for their, at the time, less than valued, draftees. This means that Marines were able to reduce the odds of being led by paper pushing, gutless, dead weight morons, of which there are many in most Western armies. Unfortunately, the US service academies' means of entry, via recommendation by corrupt politicians, means that dead weight morons still become, even Marine officers. In the Swedish Army, officers are often or invariably, brought up from the ranks. Consequently, their officer corps is less corrupt, and less stupid. Certainly, the Canadian Army's officer corps is filled with a lot of useless fools better equipped for the television show 'Survivor,' than the field - I believe that pizzas are often delivered by helicopter on Survivor, and that is much more fun that typical realities in the field. In the late 90s, it was recommended by Peter Worthington that all Canadian officers over the rank of Captain/Major, be fired and replaced with better men from the ranks below them. This never happened. The best officer I ever saw, a German Canadian Captain named Shubert, quit the infantry to become a teacher after the usual abuse - to give people an idea of what kind of crap good soldiers have to stomach in the Canadian Army. 'Heads full of shit' is a good summary description of the paperpushing officers of the Canadian Army who drove out the sniper who broke Carlos Hathcock's long range sniping record, and that is why said sniper left the army to become a pipefitter in Alberta Canada. Also, point of fact, many Canadians are serving, or have served, in all of the branches of the US military. One of the kids I used to play with in day camp in Brechin Ontario was a ranger for about 10 years, and I heard that he jumped in, pretty much everywhere. Mark Gowanlock was his name. My friend Nick from Windsor spent 4 torturous years in the Corps as a TOW gunner, much of it in the brig making big rocks into little ones. And of course, 4 of us bored young students went down from Ottawa on a fine spring day in April of 1988 to join the Marine Corps in Ogdensburg New York. That, however, is another story entirely.

    1. Johnny...sorry I can't help you with your question but have some disagreement with your comments on the 5.56. It wasn't so much Army officers deciding to use it as much as it was McNamara. While it is correct that the 5.56 doesn't have as much knock down power as the 7.62, it is more accurate when fired rapidly and you can carry a hell of a lot more of it. (And its no slouch as far as destructice power. Hit a guy in the head and he will no longer have a head. And let's not forget the noise screams, "Here I am! Over here!" while the other says, "Where did that come from?) As for the Delta guys in Somalia, they could have had all the AK's they wanted but stopping power wasn't the was the fact that they were massively outnumbered and surrounded.

  117. Is there a website that actually answers questions about ammo without having to scroll through the nonsense on this one?

  118. Mercy me,if this is a site for gun nutys you people surely do spend a lot of electrons running down each other and if those guns werent bad enough some of you actuallu use them to murder little warm fuzzy animals that never did any hurt to anyone. But, I tell you, after the revolution things are going to be alot different around here. Hey??

    1. OK. That made absolutely no sense. Well, maybe a little. The gist of it seems to be that you are against hunting. I further assume that you believe there will be some armed vegetarian revolution. I just don't see it happening. Anyway, I'm sure I'm not the only person here who hunts for food and not just for a set of horns or antlers or a skin to tack to my wall. I won't even try to explain further as it may compel you to type more gibberish that will make even less sense than what you've already written.
      Let's stick to guns and ammo......
      BTW, I just got my Kimber SIS and it is AWESOME! It's taken a great amount of self-restraint not to drain my bank account by buying and shooting thousands of rounds through it.

  119. news flash adam...there in not a us military m40 chambered in .338 LM. the usmc uses the m40 chambered in 7.62 nato. the army uses the m24 based on the same action and also chambered in 7.62 nato.

  120. not to seem agro...but you may have miss quoted the model. I have worked with a lot of guys from sf in the past and they were all awesome guys. Where are you from? in case the poop hits the fan i will know where to link up with other guys of like mind.

  121. I just spent 30 minutes reading this entire blog... I learned little about ammo... but i think i learnerd more about our marine friend here. Thanks, j8541, for serving this country. I appreciate what you have done. Thoughts and prayers with you and the men and women of the armed forces.

  122. Yep. Just like Shane, 30 minutes was spent for this entire blog -- 5 minutes for the article, 25 minutes for the comments. Had a nice time, though. It was a very informative 30 minutes.

    By the way, my dad gave me a .22 caliber a couple years back. I never knew I had that much mincemeating power in my hands! 😉

  123. The CCI .22 LR Mini-Mag ammo is ideal for small game hunting and general plinking. It is one of the industry's leading high velocity rimfire rounds. Clean-burning propellants help to keep the action cleaner. It's new production and non-corrosive.

  124. I was thinking about a Leupold scope, but I saw that Sportsman's Guide now has the military spec Crusader scopes for sale at far less than the ridiculous price the military paid. What are the thoughts on these? Are they as good as Leupold and worth the $450 they want for the 2-16x44mm scope?

  125. [quote comment="55488"]Having been a Marine (1966 to 1972) i served two tours in Nam. 1st tour (67 to 68) was with L Co. 3/26 and i served as a grunt machine gunner (M-60) and occasionally a truck or ground mounted .50 cal. My second Nam tour was as a door-gunner/crew chief on a CH-53D helo. We had door mounted .50 cals. on both sides of bird. Never heard any objections or rules concerning shooting ground troops with a .50 cal. The M-60 was a heavy mother to hump in the bush but nothing got the adrenalin flowing like the yell " GUNS UP ". had to have been there to appreciate it. never heard a 60 refered to as the "pig". Must be an Army term.[/quote]

    Army guy here...never heard the 60 referred to as the "pig" either. Must have been his unit. I do know it is never wise to volunteer to carry the 60. Sure, it's got a ton of power but it's the loudest thing out there and the first thing the enemy tries to take out. I'll stick with my M-16.